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charliehorse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 1:44pm
Sunshine - he's never told me what my issues are :(
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SunshineWife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 2:22pm
Really???? Weird...did he get you to fill our that questionnaire from the Infertility Cure book? I worked it out myself by reading the book, that I had spleen and kidney yang issue.... and he confirmed it too, though when we went for a review session with him after our BFN he said mine wasn't a very big issue, that my DH's problem was bigger and needed to work on that more. DH has lower back pain and dark under eye circles which Vitalis said related to kidneys and kidneys are very important for fertility... so he's been working on that...

I wonder whether you had to go to a real chinese practitioner to actually egt your diagnosis and all that... wonder what the ladies at Apollo will be like...or whether they just follow a general scheme for IVF?

Charlie, was it you who went to Brad the naturopath guy? Does he also do acu? we are going to him next Thur, I'm hoping he can pinpoint the diagnosis also...
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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charliehorse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 2:33pm
Don't think brad does acu, but he was spot on with his iridology. I felt the best ever after seeing him.

Maybe I should be more probing with my questions to Vitalis. He never asked me to do the questionnaire but my self diagnosis after reading The Infertility Cure is Kidney Yin and spleen deficiencies


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SunshineWife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 2:48pm
Perhaps he knew what your diagnosis was and was treating it but didn't think you wanted to know what it's called? Some people go in and don't really want to get into all the details, just rely on the practitioner to tell them what to do...? I do find that Vitalis tells you stuff if you ask...like I aks him how my pulse is and whether he can see any improvements overall (though the answer to that is 'it's like watching hair grow'!), we had a good review session with him after BFN, talked for an hour (both DH and I went in to see him), he is quite knowledgeable - talked about supplements, naturopaths, diet, exercise etc..... but yeah, he doesn't SELL it to you in the way he talks about it all. Hmmm...

I also sometimes wonder whether it's only people that actually have visible issues (like very painful period for example) that they can see a difference after these sessions...while I don't really have any symptoms and all my test are good, so hard to see improvements? My DH said his lower back was feeling much better and overall he felt more relaxed...but I wonder if it's more phycological than anything? His SA didn't improve and we got a BFN, so acu didn't help much last time...but there seems to have been so many studies done showing that chances of IVF increase with acu that I decided we should continue....

so hard to tell what to do though, ah? And it all costs so much money :( maybe none of this is important, maybe fertility clinic has it all in their hands and there's no need to try all this alternative stuff as well....makes you feel like you're in control though...at least in the leading weeks/months to IVF :-/
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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charliehorse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 4:58pm
How long is your DH been getting acu Sunshine?
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SunshineWife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:38am
He did about 10 weekly sessions prior to our embryo transfer end of March. Then stopped as we were obviouslly hoping that it was going to be a BFP and no need to continue for acu or anything (bad mistake, should've continued doing weekly sessions so then we could try again sooner!......
He now started again (tonight will be his second session) but as there was a bit of a gap (pretty much a month since he finished it last time) we are now thinking we should wait full three months since he started acu again before we have another go at IVF....it takes 3 months for sperm to mature, so it is probably a good idea to give it a full three months worth of sessions plus supplements etc...
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:00am
I don't think the month gap should make too much of a difference. Fingers crossed for you. Male Factor is such a tricky one...wish there was a wonder drug eh?

I've decided not to change acu's for now... I will get my acu communicating more instead.
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SunshineWife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:11am
oh hehee good luck! I thought it sounded a bit funny - getting HIM to communicate more! But I know what you mean, and I really hope he does - for HIS sake, or he'll lose many of his customers!

I'm going to a new one tomorrow, bought a deal on dailydo.co.nz the other day $20 for 2 sessions! Thought that was too good a deal to miss, so bought a voucher for myself and DH. That way we can try someone new to at least compare what they are like, whether they use the same points on us that Acu does?

Uh, does anyone know what moxa is in relation to acu? I emailed one lady (the one that wispy_willow went to) to ask if she comes to the fert clinics on day of embryo transfer, and she said it would be too hard for her to organise due to running a busy clinic ...said I should just come to her straight after the ET and I'd find it a lot more comfortable and she can use moxa as well?!
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wispy_willow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:20am
Hey Sunshine - I spoke to a few diff acupuncturists and they all said that as long as you get the acupuncture within 24 hrs of the transfer then it works just as well. But of course it might be more convenient to have it at the clinic!
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charliehorse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 12:56pm
oh thats nice to know willow as it's quite an expense to get them to come to you.
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ooligator View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ooligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 2:59pm
Sunshine Wife, moxa is a herb (mugwort) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion Its used by traditional chinese medicine practitioners (you won't often find many who specialise in IVF prep who use it as they do acupuncture from a medical viewpoint) to help warm up acupuncture points that may need a bit more oomph than just a needle.

The acupuncturist I see in Hamilton, who specialises in Japanese acupuncture, (though there's not much difference between Japanese and Chinese acu) uses it on me all the time to help with my kidney yang and spleen qi deficiencies.

The moxa comes as a compressed stick, like a cigar, that they light, and hold over various acupuncture points. Sometimes they'll use very thin ones, (like a straw size) and put the moxa on your skin via a stick thing (I've not actually seen what my acu uses as I'm always lying down, but it's not an acu needle, so it doesn't go into your skin, just presses on the acu point).

Sometimes my acu also uses a cone of moxa, which is about the size of a blob of chewing gum (but made into a cone) and they light it while it's directly on your skin, and you tell them when it gets too hot and they remove it.

Other times they'll put a blob of moxa on an acupuncture needle and burn it while the needle is in an acu point. You again, tell them when it gets too hot, and they take the moxa off.

It's good to help boost the acupuncture, it helps clear blockages. Often my acu will poke an acu point, and I say it hurts, or it's tender, and he then puts a needle in and burns moxa on it, and when he's done, it doesn't hurt anymore and the blockage has gone. Unexplained bruising often happens at acupuncture points.

My acu has given me moxa sticks to use at home, so I light it and hold it over various acupuncture points to self-treat inbetween my fortnightly acu sessions.

Sorry, I do go on about acu in relation to TTC, it's a topic I'm passionate about    because it's been successful with me, when nothing else I tried had, and I did it while on the waiting list for IVF. So that's why we're using it again this time.

Also, it's good (in my view) if you can find an acupuncturist that does herbs as well, as to truely get the full benefit from acupuncture, (if you're not doing it in conjunction with a current medicated cycle) is to use the herbs. The herbs do all the groundwork, the acupuncture itself will clear blockages and get things flowing, but the two together are what works best.

Edited by ooligator
Me 38
DH 39
DD1 - 3 years, born prem at 30 weeks after 5 years TTC
DD2 - born prem at 33 weeks
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Tiff8ny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiff8ny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:09pm
Naissance use moxa, she used it on me but I didnt ask why.....
Me 32, DH 30
TTC 4+ years
Unexplained Infertility
IVF#1 - Chem Pregnancy,no frosties
IVF#2 - BFP!!!! Plus 1 frostie

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SunshineWife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:39pm
Ooh ooligator thanks very much for your explanation!
I go to Vitalis in Auck who specialises in IVF and is quite popular; he uses herbs too, I was taking them prior to IVE, DH is also taking them....but we sitll got a BFN...so I am a bit discouraged and sceptical now...but there seems to be so muc positive feedback about acu that I decided we should continue with it as a support for the next cycle also.

Did you end up having a natural pregnancy while doing acu or did you have to do IVF?
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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charliehorse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 8:35pm
Vitalis uses electro-acupuncture. I'd like to try other forms as well to see which I prefer.
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ooligator View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ooligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2011 at 8:50pm
Sunshine Wife, I conceived naturally after acupuncture and herb treatment. First time was after 3.5 years TTC, but ended in early m/c. Second time was after 5 years TTC, and is our 2 year old DD.

It worked quickly for me both the first two times, but I'd also been doing other alternative therapies prior to acu/herb treatment. And in hindsight, I wonder if that helped prep my body so that the acu/herbs worked quicker. Before the 1st time, I'd been having reflexology. Before the 2nd time I'd been having cranial sacral therapy (similar to osteopathy).

So now that we're well into our 2nd year TTC#2, I'm combining acu/herbs and osteopathy, and saw a great improvement in my last cycle, which is good.

I'd say give acu/herbs at least 3 months try before deciding on it, you don't have to go weekly, but it depends on the issues. I don't have any experience in the MFI side of things, though know that acu/herbs can help that greatly also.

I find, this time round, that my acu needs to keep tweaking the herbs. I've been on herbs since Aug 2010 (with a few months off around Xmas) and he's trying different ones to see what works best. So it's possible that your acu needs to tweak the herbs. Harder to detect with MFI I guess, as they can't chart, which is mostly what I'm using as my indicator of how well they work with me. Because keeping my temp up and stable in my LP is one of my issues with kidney yang deficiency.
Me 38
DH 39
DD1 - 3 years, born prem at 30 weeks after 5 years TTC
DD2 - born prem at 33 weeks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quieteyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2011 at 7:58am
Ooligator: who do you see in Hamilton??
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ooligator View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ooligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2011 at 3:59pm
Quieteyes, I see Andrew Fraser, he's based out of Contours Gym on Tristram St. www.zenacupuncture.co.nz

He's who I saw prior to conceiving my DD, so I'm seeing him again. He's very good, discusses things with you (if you want to know), and of the three acupuncturists I've seen, he's my preferred one.
Me 38
DH 39
DD1 - 3 years, born prem at 30 weeks after 5 years TTC
DD2 - born prem at 33 weeks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunshineWife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 8:47am
HI ladies! So, DH and I went to Julia Kim on Saturday (here is the link http://www.queenstreetchiro.co.nz/index.php?page=acupuncture) and had out initial appointment and the first session with her. Wow, what a difference!!
She asked sooo many questions, about sleep (I dream a lot and remember my dreams very well - that's a bad sign), how many times I pee, how much water/tea I drink during the day, whether I feel thirsy, whether I get hungry, whether I feel tired after eating lunch/dinner, whether my emotions go up and down and I get easily stressed and angered (yes and yes!), whether I generally feel hot or cold (my body feels warm and often get sweaty but at the same time have very cold hands and feet, so poor circulation, qi is not moving, blocked somehwere), all sorts of questions about my period (day by day - colour, how heavy, any pain etc etc)...So from the very start I felt that she was approaching it quite differenty to how it was with Vitalis. She wanted to know everything and was telling me what all these symptoms mean too. She thinks I do have a few issues she needs to work on (Vitalis said that I was ok....that main problem was with DH - well, we know that as his SA is very bad) but Julia says my liver is stressed - hence mood swings, blood stagnation (my period was only a day or two late, I was so hoping for a miracle bub though did feel taht it's coming...but Julia didn't like the fact it was late even by a day! She put needles in somewhere neer my knees on the inside of my thighs? To bring the period on, to get the blood moving). She says the energy is stuck, like a fan that is still drawing power but not producing air because it's stuck, so getting overheated inside.
Her needles were a bit more painful than Vitalis'. She said she uses stronger needles - thicker. Or perhaps it was the points she was using, ones that were actually in my problem areas?
She told my DH a few 'new' things too that he wasn't told before. His is definitely a kidney issue, so she'll be working on that.
She also stuck these tiny herbs balls to our ears, we are supposed to press on them during the day 20 times.

So anyway, I just felt so much better when we left her. I felt she really knew what she was doing, was passionate about it, and was communicating with us which was so awesome! She wants us to come to her twice a week, ouch...I think the sessions are $80 each but you can buy a 4 session pass for $280...so that's $280 each for 2 weeks, ouch ouch so expensive. But I really feel this is something we need to do. She said my spirit is not calm and not ready for a baby, really need to work on my emotions.

She obviouslly can't tell us how long we need to have the treatment for.... but she sort of laughed when I said Vitalis recommended 8 sessions for me before IVF, I think she's thinking months rather than weeks....

Oh, and it's in Parnell, so no easy parking either and a bit hard for us to get to, but she's open on the weekend and has a few late nights (she works 7 days a week in two clinics!!!), so we are going to make an effort and really hope for this to work.

Just thought I'd share this with you. I feel like I've wasted time and money with Vitalis. I don't think he's not good at what he does, afterall there's been a lot of fantastic feedback about him even here on this forum. I just think that if you are not completely happy with your acu, if you don't feel like you're getting much out of it in terms of communication, knowing what your progress is.... look for somebody else!
I used to struggle to relax during acu (DH falls alseep easily!) but at Julia's I felt so calm and peaceful during the session. She put a warm lamp over me (sort of tummy area), so maybe it was the warmth... but I definitely felt a lot better knowing that I made this step to try somebody else!
Me 27, DH 25 (MFI)
IVF + ICSI March '11 BFN and no frosties
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trouble06 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 9:24am
Hi Sunshine wife - that sounds really positive with the acupunct. As I said before in another thread I only started AP for last FET and my acupunct was asking all sorts of questions in relation to sleep, stools, fitness, feeling etc all sorts of things, checks the tongue and pulse, some I thought was OTT but am impressed with her knowledge and skill. I was only seeing her once a week. Everytime she gives me the massage and puts the needles in and then puts the lamp on them to heat the needles I think - although one time it was a bit close and i came home with spidery marks on lower tummy. I need to go back to her this week. If I do get BFP this month as result of FET then I am convinced it could be result of acupunct which I didnt do previously.
Me 35 DH 40
IVF ISCI Nov BFN
FET Jan 2011 Chem
FET April 2011 M/C 7 weeks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charliehorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2011 at 10:38am
Sunshine - very interesting... maybe it's time for me to switch too. My cycles are getting longer, not shorter.
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