Legally registering miscarried foetuses?
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Topic: Legally registering miscarried foetuses?
Posted By: Maya
Subject: Legally registering miscarried foetuses?
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 1:50pm
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Should couples be allowed to name and officially register the birth/death of their miscarried foetuses? What do you think? Where do you draw the line?
Legalise fetus status - church 5:00AM Thursday February 21, 2008 PARIS - France's Roman Catholic Church has called for embryos to be given a clear legal status following a court decision that let parents of miscarried fetuses enter them with a name in the official civil registry. Groups opposed to abortion in many countries have long argued for a legal status for embryos as the first step towards having courts rule that abortion is a form of murder. Abortion rights supporters vigorously oppose any such status. But Paris Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois, head of the French bishops' conference, said establishing this status would not undermine legal abortion in France because of the way the law allowing the termination of pregnancies was constructed. The Cour de Cassation, France's highest appeals court, ruled on February 6 that a miscarried fetus could be entered into the civil registry if a couple wished to commemorate it that way. - REUTERS SOURCE: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=1500859&objectid=10493579&ref=rss - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=1500859&objectid=10493579&ref=rss -------------  Maya Grace (28/02/03)
 (02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Replies:
Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 1:59pm
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um... not sure.
To be honest, after 20 weeks maybe? or from when baby is considered "viable". I know, it's no less a baby at 20 weeks to 6 weeks. I don't really know. Tough call. Then you get into the argument of how early in the pregnancy do you try to save them, by going into labour etc ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 2:11pm
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At the moment the law in NZ is that you can register babies born after 20 weeks or weighing more than 400g if you want to but you're not legally required to until a later gestation, not 100% sure whether that's 24 or 26 weeks.
I agree, it's a tough one. I mean, on the one hand I think it's a bit silly to register a fetus miscarried at say 6 or 7 weeks when you don't even know the gender, but then who's to say that a baby born at 19 weeks 6 days is any less 'worthy' of being registered than one born at 20 weeks 0 days? I guess you have to draw a line somewhere. ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 2:44pm
I agree on both counts. Blurry line, tho. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Maya wrote:Posted By: my2angels
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:14pm
| yeah that is a hard one. I thought it was all something to do with if they had taken a breath or not or is that just if you have to have a funeral? I know my friend who had her wee boy at 19 weeks were told they didnt have to have a funeral because he hadnt taken a breath (he died during the labour) but when you see him he was completely developed etc.. looking baby and the thought that you would just let the hospital 'dispose' of him was disgusting. so I guess to me, if they are actually formed and look like a baby then I would want to acknowledge that but if they are still just eggs/cells then maybe I wouldnt worry so much. |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:42pm
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I'm not sure what the rules are re: having to have a funeral but I do know that a few friends who have had stillborn babies at term have had funerals for them and they never took a breath. Interesting thought tho. ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: my2angels
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 9:47pm
| I think its more of an option if they havent taken a breath like you can do it for closure etc.. but if they have taken a breath you have to register the birth and have a funeral of some sort. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 9:54pm
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I know that the church never use to recognise a baby unless it had taken a breath, i'm not sure if they have changed their opinion on that.
I think if it was just voluntary for anyone who wanted to remember a baby then it is fine, for some people perhaps have a death certificate or a formal ceremony would give more closure for them. It is hard to pick a time as well, perhaps to a point it should be voluntary and then over a certain number of weeks mandatory. Who knows really, I wouldn't want to make the decision about it. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: yummymummy
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 11:15pm
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That's a tough one, I'm not really sure. I agree that it may be best to have it voluntary up to a point and then mendatory ie after the pregnancy becomes viable. ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 12:52am
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I think as long as its kept as a voluntary thing it might be quite nice for those using it in the grieving process. As soon as it became compulsory then I think thats a very different story. ------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3 
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 8:37am
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Technically, you aren't obliged to have a funeral for anyone, there are just rules you have to adhere to for burial etc, and that must be done through the correct channels. For Babies, to be classed as a stillbirth, they must be over a certain weight (400g) and gestation period, then you get a death certificate only. The breath thing only comes into play as if they have breathed, or be born live, you must register the birth as well as the death. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 07 March 2008 at 8:17pm
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The catholic church believes a baby is a human/ person as soon as conception happens. So regardless of if the baby is 7 weeks or 20 weeks when he/she dies they were alive and were not a mass of cells. So i think if the baby dies (the heart stops beating) at what ever age a life is lost and should be mourned and remembered in which ever way the person is comfortable.
That is why the Catholic Church is against abortion because the baby is created from conception and is a human being . I don't think a baby is any less a baby because it is 6 or 10 weeks gestation when he/she dies. Who decides at what gestation a baby becomes a baby.?? -------------  
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Posted By: Jessica
Date Posted: 11 March 2008 at 9:06pm
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It is a hard situation, we lost our twins at 19 weeks 5 days after finding out at our 19 week scan that we had conjoined twins (siamese). I had them naturally and was told we would not have to register them because they were under 20 weeks. When we went to pick the boys ashes up from the funeral director they told us we had to register them, I wasn't in much of a state and didn't know what to do. We went back to the hospital adn their advocacy people were great, it turned out that we did have to register them becuase they weighed over 400 gms - because we had asked that they not be seperated, so we tried to fill out the forms but we couldn't do that because there is no box for siamese twins (funny that!) when they ask was this twin first or second born so the people at Births deaths and marriages said we could only register them as 1, I was devestated but did as we were told. I went back to work a week or so later and was still a bit upset over it, my principal was also upset for me and she contacted our local MP, Jacquie Dean, who meet the head of Births Deaths and Marriage and to make a long story short, they changed the rules and my boys now both have a birth certificate and death certificates, which means a lot.
Sorry for the long post but this is quite a big thing to me  ------------- 
Our con-joined boys 20 wk |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 11 March 2008 at 9:13pm
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Jessica..fair enough it's great you managed to get them each a certificate!
hmm no tsure how i feel about this situation..my friend knew her baby was going to die..but got them to induce her after 20 weeks so that she could register the baby.. the Dh helped deliver her and she (10 years) late ris still tlaked about as their middle child.. so i guess it's different for all..i agree there has to be some sort of cut off but for me I will always think of my miscarried baby as a baby not a mass of cells(that's why i couldnt look at it after DandC like Dh did). ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 12 March 2008 at 1:35pm
That's such a sad story Jessica, it sucks that there has to be so much red tape around these things  I'm glad you were able to have your wee babes recognised.
------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: Two Blondinis
Date Posted: 20 March 2008 at 7:54am
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I'm not at all religious but agree 100% that from conception there is a baby and if you choose to acknowledge the death, however early along in the pregnancy you were, I think you should be given every opportunity to mourn in anyway you see appropriate.
Like with Jessica's twins - who has the right to say that those children should not be accepted as individuals and as people for all those other little ones!?!?  Glad to hear it was sorted in the end, but I still think it's shocking that you were put through that beaurocratic (sp?) nonsense during that time.------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
 
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