Smacking referendum
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Topic: Smacking referendum
Posted By: busymum
Subject: Smacking referendum
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 6:58pm
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Here's some details of the referendum which now looks destined to take place sometime in the next six months. The question they ask, however (should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?), seems too limited to me, especially after recent news reports on other things like ear flicking etc. I dunno, I guess I wouldn't want to see smacking de-criminalised but not the lesser restrictive/corrective things which were also criminialised at the same time. Tough one. It seems to me that it would be far better to reword the whole piece of law (again) so that there is no doubt as to simple correction vs abuse.
Your thoughts? http://www.stuff.co.nz/4665501a11.html - Stuff article -------------  |
Replies:
Posted By: Henna79
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 7:19pm
| I am pleased they are doing a referendum. I am kinda sick of the govt telling us how we should be living our lives. |
Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 8:21pm
| am in such two minds about this. i hate the idea that parents are getting prosecuted for minor things, but also strongly believe that children can be disciplined so much better by other means....i have no idea how i will vote. |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 8:32pm
| I'm glad its got to referendum stage, it is a law that never should have been passed in the public's interest without the public actually having a say. |
Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 9:14pm
| I will definatley be voting yes. |
Posted By: Candkids
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 10:41pm
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i think it is rediculas that a woman who has a criminal reccord for assaulting a POLICE officer and whos kids have been in and out of prison can not only be a MP when she obviously doesnt respect the law, but thinks she knows how we should parent our kids. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">  DD 10.5yrs DS 6yrs DS 11mths 5 little angles watching from above |
Posted By: Mum2L
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 11:05pm
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Just remember a referendum is not legally binding on the government to change the law. They can ignore how the votes come out.
Personally myself, I am against all forms of 'smacking'. You may think what you like, but I don't see why an adult cannot lay a finger on another adult, yet adults think it is ok to do it to a child. What is deem as 'simple correction' is open to interpretation by a lot of parents, and removing that section of the Crimes Act took away that interpretation. I am glad the legislation went through, and was a avid supporter throughout. I have personal experience of the use of smacking and how my mother manage to get away from being prosecuted because the judge deemed she had used reasonable force, despite the fact that what she had done to me both physically and emotionally was abuse and was backed up by witnesses and a psychologist report. CatzKids - Sue Bradford was arrested during a protest, and was voicing her political opinions. So what if her children have been in and out of prison, it was their decision to break the law, not hers. She should not be held responsible for actions that they have done as adults. I may have started a flame war here, but I won't bother posting further on this subject. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:03am
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I will also be voting yes, there are far more effective ways of disciplining and also they yet again are not defining the boundaries. What constitutes a smack in my mind could be totally different in someone elses. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:17am
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I'm not a huge supporter of smacking and I am glad that this whole issue came up to at least challenge people's thinking. It's something that I won't go back to. But in saying that, sometimes I will still give Kryssi a quick smack on her hand when she is reaching for something hot that I have told her not to. I still think it is better for her.
I think my biggest thing with the law is that it does take correction away from parents - and I think parents should correct their children. Carrying a child to time out/the grocery store against their will is also outlawed as a result of the law change and that is just ridiculous. So that's why I'd like to see the law actually better written. But then, I get what Henna says too about the govt really starting to take over "how" we should live our lives, and that bugs me too. ------------- |
Posted By: pikelets
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 1:54pm
I agree with lady-aset. I don't understand why an adult can't be hit but a little person can. Doesn't seem right. Smacking a hand away before it takes a hot drink is different and you wouldn't get in trouble for that because you are protecting your child. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
 3 Angels - Dec10 / Mar11 / Dec11
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lady_aset wrote:Posted By: Peanut
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 2:21pm
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Star, thats what you think! There have been cases that have been investigated for doing that exact same thing. Its just to confusing as it stands.
Lady_Aset - I think that its interesting that her kids have been in and out of jail. Its obvious her parenting style hasn't worked and yet she is keen to push it on a nation! I am not a fan of smacking but think the whole thing needs clarifying. -------------  
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 3:25pm
Removing the hand is ok but giving her a smack (because, e.g. its the third time in a row and you want her to get that it's important!) is not legal. ------------- |
Posted By: Candkids
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 3:47pm
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everyone has their own parenting style, so all parents will have different views on it.
what works for 1 child may not work for another. and if your child responds to just the word naughty corner or no then good on you i really do envy you. i dont have a problem with a smack on the hand. i do NOT agree with people who smack their kids with wooden spoons etc thats just un called for. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> DD 10.5yrs DS 6yrs DS 11mths 5 little angles watching from above |
Posted By: pikelets
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:51pm
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If a complaint has been made then it would have to be investigated but I would be surprised if you would be charged for that.
I definately think it needs to be clarified. I don't like how it is called the anti-smacking law as it is a bit more than that. IYKWIM ------------- http://lilypie.com">
3 Angels - Dec10 / Mar11 / Dec11
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 23 August 2008 at 10:06pm
ahhh memories ...my mother used the old wooden spoon on us...until the day my brother grabbed it off her mid smack and broke it in half...*sighs* what fun we had .... |
Posted By: nikkitheknitter
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 11:01pm
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hehe... I think most of you know my views on this.
I think lady_aset put things exactly as I would have said. 
I may be causing problems where they are not due but I still don't see smacking here as the most effective means of teaching a kid about not touching the drink. If the kiddo is too young to understand that they shouldn't be touching hot drinks then hot drinks shouldn't be left in their reach. It's that simple. So again, I have to agree with the 'simple correction' and very fact that it isn't included in law as a valid means of "teaching" your child the difference between right and wrong. |
Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 11:50am
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My view on this is that there is or at least in my opinion clear difference in abuse and just light smack. I dnt smack my DD but have tapped her on her bum a few times (while wearing her nappy ...so she hardly feels it) but I feel that prosecuting a parents for flicking his kid on the ear (the last story of the kind).....is just to weird! I hate to see many parents having to defend themself even tho the kid was actually not harmed in any way....at the same time I want those Bast@#$ in jail for hurting kids and abusing them.
So this law def needs to be clear cut!! If you smack and it doesnt even leave a mark on the child then is it abuse?? and for all those who say they dont believe that smacking is necessary...ok but there are few million ppl in NZ and every ones view is different...who are we to say how they should live their lives. What will be next? Asking for a licence to have a second baby (like china)? Like I said I am two minds about it!  ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 12:25pm
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There are lots of laws that not everyone agrees with but they still exist and people still have to abide by them. Just because some people think a clip round the ear is ok doesn't mean it is. The same as some people think it is ok to drink and drive when itsagainst the law, they are probably of the mind that it shouldn't be.
It's the responsibility of the government to create laws to protects its people, not everyone is gonna like it but that is just tough. I could prosecute my husband if he smacked me so why should it be ok for him to smack Spencer? (he wouldnt' smack either of us, just an example) -------------
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 12:40pm
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Come on tho...a flick on the ear? we play jokes on out friends that does more damage than that and you dont see a by stander or even the person involve complain to the police!
Flick of the ear or light smack on hand is NOT Abuse IMO no matter what is said about it! And yes there are laws that some dont agree with but most are reasonable like you mentions drinking and driving! And in all honesty I think NZ Justice system sucks because we are not tough on our real criminal and yet we are concentrating on prosecuting parents you flick their kids on the ear....honestly get the priority right. Put in place better laws for scum...and then concentrate on parents who flick kids ear!! ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 5:26pm
| i seem to recall that there was more to the ear flicking in the end...can't remember what it was but... |
Posted By: mum2paris
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 10:11pm
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I am against the decriminalisation of the smacking and such like.
Simply because I have never smacked my girls, probably as a direct result of living through years of abuse (physical and emotional and psychological) at the hands of my mum. I want more for them than that. And yeah Ayja drives me to the ends of my wits at times - but i would never go as far as to smack. I am all for teaching right from wrong with talking and giving them a chance to do they right things - so that in time - as they get past the horrible toddler-not-listening stage - they will learn how to right their wrongs and how to self-regulate their own behaviour. That doesn't mean to sound self-righteous in any way. I am jsut saying, what works for me, and maybe doesn't work for everyone, but coming from how i was brought up, I would never vote to have any form of physical "discipline" allowed. ------------- Janine and her 2 cool chicks, Paris & Ayja 
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Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 26 August 2008 at 11:43pm
It just seems crazy/scary/sad to me that people are fighting so passionately for the right to hit their kids   ------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3 
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 27 August 2008 at 10:03am
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I dont agree that it is fighting for the right to hit their kids...well at least I dont hit my kid and never intend to hit either of them, like Janine I teach DD right and wrong and I am lucky that she is not a impossible child....and most days the "Corner" is mentioned and that is enough....its more to do with what else are we going to be told to do and not to do by govt?
I mean it should be common sense that you cant hit your kid and yes there are some psychos out there that dont seems to know that but in general would you say that NZ parents are bad parents...or atleast any one on here that we know? I have only a handful of friends who have kids and I have never seen them hit their kids...and they would never see me hit mine. I am all for the law to go ahead...only thing is I dont want to see parents being prosecuted for smack on bum or hand etc.....and I again dont think that this is abuse! I was hit by my parents when younger and by the teachers at school...that was norm where I grew up and I am not screwed up or scared for life but then I wont allow that for my children. So as society we need to learn that what we might have endured in the past was not so fun so lets break the cycle! I only wish that it never had to come to this, if all parents thought like us that hitting your kid or any one for that matter is not acceptable! Alas we dont live in a perfect world!  ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 27 August 2008 at 1:19pm
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I don't get why people are upset about the govt telling us what to do. They are elected in to power to be the decision makers and its their job to make, amend or over turn laws dependant upon what society dictates as acceptable social behaviour. There are laws that say you can't kill someone, you would think that would be common sense and most people won't do it be the law is still there. The laws are our moral code and morally it is wrong to hit children. The govt aren't telling you how to parent they are just telling you that hitting a child is now against the law because under the previous law it wasn't. (or at least the lines were blurred).
I agree that a gentle smack on the hand during a tense moment when you react to bat the hand away from danger shouldn't be a crime, but I also don't think a smack on the hand just because you have told the child 5 times already not to touch whatever it is is neceassary and there is a clear distinction between immediate danger and a reaction to it than to a percieved danger where other methods can be used. Also remember only 300,000 people signed the petition which means far more people of voting age didn't so surely that means the majority of people are happy with the law as it stands. -------------
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 27 August 2008 at 3:44pm
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Yah agreed...I dont have a problem with it either as only people who know that they abuse their kids will be afraid of this law, not good parents like you and I.
But every one doesnt see it that way I guess...and I for one dont want Govt to control every thing in my life but so far I have no problems with the laws in place in NZ. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mum2paris
Date Posted: 27 August 2008 at 8:39pm
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The thing about this that irks me seriously, is the fact that people are saying "well it's laws like that that make it mean you can't discipline your kid, they can do whatever they like, no wonder kids are so terrible these days." blah blah blah
What a load of trash. Again not meaning to sound self righteous at all, but out of my girls, who have never been hit - compared to a few others i know, including my nieces and nephews etc that have been brought up with that form of discipline for the nuaghty stuff. I can safely say, my girls tend to be more curteous to others, tends not to use violence to get their own ways in tussles with each other (not too often anyway) or their friends. and certainly are more polite and well behaved. so that's a huge load of bull, it's not about how many times you hit them, it's how much you're willing to work at solving the problem. Hitting might stop them for 2 seconds, but they won't learn, they might learn that "if i touch this i will get hit" but they won't learn "If i touch this it's not safe for me" hence the earlier comment about learning to self-regulate behaviour. My older sister had always been like this with her kids and has always kinda been on at them step by step by step constantly telling them this and that. And hello, at 13 and 11, If you ask them to get ready to go out, or to do something, you still now have to give them blow by blow instructions and stand there and make sure they do it every step of the way.... my kids i can ask to get ready and they know this means for example to ge their jackets and hats on, get their shoes and sock and put them on, choose a toy to take in the car, Paris will often go and shut the windows for me without being asked etc. Working together with mutual respect goes faaaaaaar further, teaching them to make the right decisions in life, in regards to all choices, and in regards to thinking about the choices they made about their behaviour - teaches them to really think about the consequences of their actions, and teaches them to be independant, without the worry of "if i don't do this mummy will get mad at me and give me a smack" What Roksana said is right - the majority of ones that aren't worried about the petition are the ones that would only use a little tap to aler ttheir child to the danger etc, because they know that in that situation no sensible person is going to say " how dare you grab that childs arm and yank them back before they ran out onto the road full of cars". The ones that are afraid of the law are the ones that smack far too regularly, think that's the only way to get their child to do what whey want it to do, and who are afraid that to learn new ways to parent and work with their kids. ------------- Janine and her 2 cool chicks, Paris & Ayja
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 27 August 2008 at 9:16pm
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See it's so tricky. I don't advocate smacking but I also don't think someone should be branded a "criminal" because that's how they choose to discipline their kids. I'm not talking about hitting or leaving marks, just a simple swat to keep them in line. And this isn't even what we do, but I have seen it work and I think it's ok. It's also mostly how I was raised.
But the law does need to be worded properly because my impression is that "good" parents are left anxious over every little roughing that they might do. I used smacking against grabbing a hot cuppa as an example earlier; see with Kryssi she really is that age where she will persevere if you say no (and I'm not talking about leaving a cup around, just actually having a cuppa myself and she tries to grab it). Sometimes I think that a quick smack might work best for that kind of scenario - after I've already told her about 3 times. Obviously not the only option for discipline, but that shouldn't land me into Court. ------------- |
Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 28 August 2008 at 11:44am
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I am with Janine, hitting kids dont make them learn and also doesnt make them respect their parents but fear them.
Z is also very well behaved and polite...well every one aways says she is...and that because since she was little we have been teaching her Right and wrong! She know that Oven/ Heater/stove etc is HOT so she never touchs it...I dont ever recall hitting her hand for trying to touch! May be I am lucky that she listens but I fee she respects us and I Know for sure she doesnt fear us! I wouldnt want it any other way!!  ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 28 August 2008 at 12:27pm
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I think I will be voting to have it over turned. I use a smack on the palm as a last resort or if they have been told time and time again not to touch something. It is not the first thing I use it is the last and it works 99% of the time. I don't use force (it is a tap on the hand) and I don't use anything but my own hand. I have say as well, my parents did the same to us and we aren't in trouble with the law, yet my mum's sister who didn't do anything at let her children do as they please are in trouble with the law. Don't know if it is the result of dissapline (or lack thereof, or the love of the parents, as they weren't all that loved in the home) or not, and I don't think we ever will. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |