Amended Abortion Bill
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Topic: Amended Abortion Bill
Posted By: MissAngel
Subject: Amended Abortion Bill
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 5:47pm
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Firstly - if you're going to come into the thread and go on about abortions being murder bla bla, please dont bother.
I just heard on the news that a labour MP wants the current abortion law changed to allow abortions to take place up to and after 24 weeks and went HAAAAANG on a minute, this doesnt sound good. So I went to Nzherald.co.nz and read the article myself.
Now, this I agree with. I dont think it should be part of the criminal act - women have the RIGHT to choose what is right with them of course. I also agree with the last part of the quote - mostly because of a friend of my mothers who discovered at the 20 week scan (which was done at 24 weeks due to travel issues) that their dear little baby was suffering from a condition that caused her to not form vital parts of her skull and other bones in the body. They of course couldnt terminate the pregnancy and knew that the baby wouldnt likely survive the birth, so they chose to have a DNR for her. The hospital ignored the DNR and now they have a terribly disabled child who will most likely die within the first year of her life (she's 6 weeks old). I think it's great that people will be able to make a better choice for the child if it's going to be severely disabled / will die at birth etc. I also like that they want to regulate it like any other medical procedure so that women cant use it as a form of contraception - which they DO! Couldn't believe it when I heard that. Anyway here's the link: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10656210 Will be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts. ------------- Alex, Thomas and Lily http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Mrs Chadwick's Abortion Reform Bill would take abortion out of the Crimes Act, making it solely a health matter and a choice for the patient, at least in the first part of pregnancy.
Replies:
Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 5:57pm
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I'm mixed about it...
I don't really agree with later abortions just cause they don't want the child that late in pregnancy. Early abortions I have no issue with.. From my own point of view though having to get 2 people sign off an abortion on medical grounds is awful. Palmy isn't exactly a teeny town yet I couldn't get 2 doctors to sign off and say that Jared had severe spina bifida and that I could have an abortion. We had to fart ass around and wait and then travel to wellys to get the another doctor to sign off. Not only did it make me further along. Being made to wait in that situation is highly stressful. I don't see why a city of Palmys size couldn't have 2 docs sign it off. If it were one we wouldn't have had such a hard time. |
Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 7:35pm
I am the same, imo though I think that abortion that late should only happen if there are serious problems with the baby... I guess it depends what risk the mother is at too... E.g is she likely to kill herself if made to continue with the pregnancy or not. (Hope that came out as I intended)... I think if it's a case of her having mixed feelings through out then deciding nope and seeing as she can have one that late she'll go through with it, then it shouldn't be allowed. Early abortions I have no problem with either, as I've had one. TBH I found the whole process easy, but not quick. The doctor who confirmed my pregnancy was the one who suggested abortion to me as I was 17 - he didn't give me a change to consider being pregnant or anything just said it's a positive, you can have an abortion.  Was a slow process, I had severe vomiting and weighing f**k all to begin with lost over 10% of my body weight. So from finding out to going through with it took almost a month. Being 17 I had no idea really what I was getting myself into either.
ETA: I agree women have the right as well, and it shouldn't be a crime, under the right circumstances imo. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 9:01am
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Abortion late in pregnancy usually involves being induced, its not an easy procedure and can be pretty harrowing, I don't think its something anyone would undertake lightly.
Given the pathetic level of service in some of our DHBs getting 2 consenting signatures would be problematic. I agree with changing this rule and allowing the pregnant women and her GP/LMC to make the decision only. I had an abortion in the UK and I didn't have to go through any of the hassles like you do here, apart from seeing a councellor once to confirm that I was of sound mind and ok to go ahead with the termination everything was done pretty quickly. I was getting on for 10 weeks so speed was necessary. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">   [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 12:04pm
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decided to delete... ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 12:19pm
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I am still haunted by mine and I was 11 weeks when it happened.
I found it easy to get to doctors to consent, guess it was my age ? And also had to see a counselor. You have a good point about not undergoing it without good reason, although I am sure there would be someone out there who may not have a good reason. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 12:30pm
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My only reason for having an abortion when I did was cause I didn't want the baby. It wasn't anything to do with age at all. I was 25. I guess for me the whole experience wasn't difficult at all, and probably why I've had no problems since.
Seems the NZ model creates more problems than it solves. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 12:32pm
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It is tricky though isn't it... I mean what someone else may consider a very valid reason may not seem like a good reason at all to someone else... I guess it's a matter of the impact on the patients life... Once a fetus is viable (unless it is the type of situation Missangel mentioned) I do have issues with termination ... I mean there is always adoption if the woman is not in the situation to raise the child. ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 12:45pm
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We were offered termination at 20 weeks, and while it wasnt our choice, I would support a bill that encouraged the option later in a pregnancy due to medical reasons without the drama, my concern would be on the base of the sex of the baby. I expect these situations would hopefully be few and far between but what a thought.
It definately should not be a criminal offence, and Im sure the ethical reasons for late pregnancy abortion would far out weigh the 'irresponsible choices' I remember the panic when I chose to terminate 'in time' after finding out rather late in the piece that I was pregnant under circumstances that werent going to be good for anyone involved, I wasnt a baby , It would be a horrible situation for an unsupported young woman to be in I actually commented on the yahoo discussion about it, which I dont often do, but I once watched a programme where a little girl asked her Mummy what the word 'f**k' meant - the mums response was a very nasty word for a very beautiful thing - I believe if we put more effort into teaching our children about the reasons people choose to have sex we could make a dent in the very high stats for teenage abortion. I certainly wish someone had taken the time to chat to me about the emotional side of sex as a youngin and I hope I can instill some of that knowledge in my children ------------- http://lilypie.com] 
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Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 8:01pm
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This is a touchy subject. I think that the first trimester rule should stay. With the exception of the baby/mother having a legitimate medical reason to terminate. In cases like this I think that the easier and quicker the better.
I think you brought up an interesting point raspberry on the abortion after finding out the sex of the child. It would be unfortunate to have gender selection thru abortion. |
Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 8:17pm
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I knew someone a long time ago who did have more than one abortion and used them as birth control it was awful and sad and should not be allowed to happen. She was preggies 3 or 4 times close together as well. Don't agree with it at all. I don't agree with abortion.Mainly because of my values, beliefs, faith and how long it took us to have our babies. My concern is if this bill goes ahead what is the cut off? 25 weeks 30 weeks e.t.c?? the baby is vaible and should be put up for adoption, rather than aborted. -------------  
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Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 8:31pm
There is no first tri rule... you can abort during the second trimester up to 20 weeks with the same requirements as the first trimester.... i.e. consent from two Drs... the only difference being it must take place in a hospital. I think the aim of this is to allow termination beyond this point... ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 8:40pm
agree entirley - where and who draws the line once viability is possible - it opens a huge can of worms thats for sure Obviously those who have found conception difficult will have very strong feelings, for absolute due reason but also if this is not extended do those who would otherwise have not been able terminate without medical reason find themselves with children that are unwanted, seen as a burden or mistreated because of the sudden rush of love they feel when that little baby is in their arms and they cant give them to worthy adoptive parents. Surely this too creates an ethical dilema in the mental health of both parents and unborn children, which in my opinion is also just as important as simply been given the chance to exist I sure wouldnt like to be the person ticking the box to say yay or nay ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 9:37pm
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Many other countries offer terminations in the second trimester - i was offered one with Taine at 16 weeks (due my appalling japanese).
was reading something about forgoing the counselling, but making all terminations have to have had a scan first....that might have been the Family First guy tho. I am for the one person sign off, but againest the second trimester unless medical. I have to admit being shocked Stacey at your treatment, I would've thought given Jared's prognosis, getting an abortion would not have been difficult at all. |
Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 9:50pm
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That is true about a cut off, but depends on circumstances e.g health concerns for mum or bubs (serious). ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 05 July 2010 at 1:54pm
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Hmm very touchy subject.
I think the first Trimester rule should remain the same, with the exception that it should be medical or for reasons of the mother having physcological issues. It is too easy. Also I fumbled upon an abortion video on youtube of after first trimester and up till then I had never really been bothered by abortions, but after seeing what some people do (mostly in America) I broke down and it has haunted me since. The techniques used (also used in this country) is not pain free for the baby, but is for the mother. I think for medical reasons then yes of course give the option, but its crossing a humane line when it starts becoming a decision solely on whether you want it or not after 13 weeks. What is so wrong with adoption. The baby will be loved and mother can go on living her life how she pleases. I don't understand why some people would prefer a dead baby over one in a loving family. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 6:25pm
I didn't know that. I think the earlier the better. I definately don't think it should be after this point and not sure how I feel about it even being up to this point seeing as I always thought it was up to 12 weeks. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 8:38pm
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Wow I didn't actually realise that it was allowed after 12 weeks to. I remember having a conversation to my MW about this and she said she would not allow anyone after 12 weeks to go ahead with one and that her and the physicians in our area are very very strict on this type of thing. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: fairy1
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 8:44pm
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I think the proposed bill is good but there does need to be set a cut off point. It is saying that it would be for medical and physiological reasons and as long as this is regulated then it should be good. People shouldnt be able to abort the baby at a late stage just because they dont want it or for gender selection and I think (and hope) medical professionals would be good as judging this.
For those saying that adoption is better than abortion I think it comes down to the person carrying the baby as to what they think. The person may not be able to cope emotionally or physiologically with the effects of a carrying a baby and it would be in their (and babies) best interest to abort the baby. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 9:22pm
Well said chick- this is one of the latest pushes in sexuality education in primary school - teaching kids about themselves, other, relationships, conflict resolution and compromises. Early intervention has a ripple effect for teen and adult years. As for the bill, I have mixed feelings. I think it would have to be very clear cut about how to weed out the people who wish to abort for reasons such as gender, while still allowing cases where mothers really feel they can't look after a baby to go through. I honestly don't know how they would achieve that well. And Stacey - I'm appalled at how much you had to go through to get your abortion 
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 9:09am
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The reasons for termination are as varied as the women seeking abortions, I guess it comes down to whose life is of more value the women's or the unborn baby.
------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 9:10am
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. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 9:40am
| Kazper, I think you're missing the point, and people that have been through the torment of having (or choosing) to abort a baby don't really need that sort of reaction brought into it. It's hard enough for them regardless. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 9:54am
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. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 07 July 2010 at 11:20am
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Have taken away my last two posts as you were right emz. It is not me to be like that and should really keep my views within check.
I owe an apology and hope I didn't offend anyone. I think it is a very controversial topic. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 12:51pm
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It's a difficult issue for me to think about. But either way I think that women should get extensive counselling both before and after making such a huge decision. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 1:13pm
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I personally don't agree with anything that makes abortion easier except in real medical circumstances and by that I mean serious problems with the baby or serious physical problems with the women meaning continueing the pregnancy could cause her death.
I don't buy into the whole mental/emotional reasons, I believe if your mental/emotional state is that bad how could going through with an abortion ever make that better, surely having the baby and adopting it out would be better for the women as well as obviously better for the baby. I think when women fall pregnant unexpectedly abortion should be the absolute last option, not the first option it seems to be for some. I also think easy access to abortion leads to carelessness with contraception and believe not enough is spoken to young girls about the huge emotional toll that having an abortion has on someone. And to answer the question about whose life is more important, I believe the babies is, the baby is the innocent party, the women decided to have sex and when you have sex regardless of whether you are using contraception or not there is always a risk of pregnancy and if you are incapable for whatever reason of either raising the baby yourself or at least carry to term and then adopting the baby out to someone else who can look after the baby then you really should abstain from sex. That simple. |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 1:35pm
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------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 1:49pm
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The counselling issue.. I never think that counselling should be forced upon a person. We were offered counselling afterwards, DH chose to talk to the social worker once I think, I didn't because its not something I felt comfortable with talking to with a complete stranger..
It should be available, but not complusory. I think there are very valid emotional reasons why someone might want an abortion.. how about rape victims or sexual abuse victims.. they might be physically able to carry a child but my god what a mind f*** it would be to carry that child and give birth to it.. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 2:03pm
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And I was just stating that I don't agree with amending it in this way and giving my reasons for why.
I wasn't so much saying that abortion is used as contraception more just that the consequences of unplanned pregnancy is different to what it use to be and I believe this leads to carelessness with contraception. |
Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 2:14pm
| (wasn't having a go, just stating a reason I know I'd want an abortion for purely emotional reasons) |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 2:22pm
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Sorry but I disagree with this statement, women have been trying to give themselves abortions or seeking abortionists as long as man kind has been having sex. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 6:37pm
| Not trying to turn this in to a debate but I think you are misreading what I'm saying. I think in general, in our time, getting pregnant does not have the same consequences that it use to. I.e pregnant out of marriage, pregnant when single, pregnant to mulitple fathers or fathers unknown is not an unusual or even socially unacceptable thing anymore. Therefore the consequences of getting pregnant unplanned are different to what they use to be which leads to women (and men) being less careful about contraception and sex in general, leading to more unplanned pregnancies and therefore unfortunately more abortions. And the easier it is to access abortion the more socially acceptable that becomes and I don't think that is a good path to go down as a society. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 8:06pm
Oh the comment made about this not being 1970s please remember that a lot of us would not be here today if abortion was the main option back in 1970. How many of us have family members - even great great grandparents that were adopted. I'm sure your not saying that it was in the best interests of those babies at the time to be terminated!?! and if that is what is being said then I would not be here and nor would my daughter. It's funny how such little importance is put on the innocence of a baby, but its different with children and adults. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 8:32pm
I respect your opinion entirely, however I think its imperative to point out that social change is inevitable, and while it would be ideal to expect society to still hold morals as high as yours, many of the beliefs which we have seemingly left behind were the beliefs of the church and the strength of the family unit as a whole. Sadly many no longer have support structures such as this. As I have already said I am pro choice for termination on medical grounds, but also feel that a young girl who has never been given a support system is highly unlikely to make safe decisions about why she has sex or the responsibilities that comes with, let alone have the support or foresight to adopt a child out, or suitably raise a child. Clearly age is not always an indicator of fit parenting, as we often see in the news, but it is also clear in the stats that the majority of those requiring such resources are teenagers. As sad as it is I think we need this change to happen, although I do think this is still shutting the gate once the horse has bolted so to speak, there is a demand for termination outside of the current guidelines ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: fairy1
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 8:40pm
I think people are very careful with contraception because of the risk of STD's and most people dont want to get pregnant so will use contraception. The consequences of STDs are high, and it doesnt take people getting one to learn this. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: fairy1
Date Posted: 08 July 2010 at 8:42pm
If you have severe depression and get pregnant, the toll it would take on you mentally if you were to carry that baby to term and adopt it would do worse damage than an abortion. If your an alcoholic and get pregnant you're not in a state to carry a baby to term and again, adoption is in the best interest for the women. Both of the above are examples of reasons why mentally and emotionally some women ar enot in a state where is safe for them (or the baby) to carry the baby to term. They need to look after themselves first before they can look after anyone else (including an unborn baby). ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 8:32am
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Looks like there is a lot of different ways to look at this, but it still comes down to whether the bill should be changed to allow termination beyond the first trimester etc
I totally understand there are few very good reasons as to why someone would abort in first trimester even though I do not agree, but its the going beyond that point that raises major ethical issues. It's crossing a humane line and again for some reason people seem to be putting more importance on the women and think that it is in best interests for the baby. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 9:07am
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Kazper - abortion is legal until 20 weeks! not just the first trimester.... beyond that is what this is addressing ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 9:48am
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This is what's currently available, it is going beyond that. I would be assuming that anyone terminating beyond that period would be doing it for medical reasons. Terminating that late because you don't want the pregnancy I agree is being irresponsible. If there are medical grounds for terminating beyond 20 weeks, then yes the process should be expediated, as the longer it takes the more harm there is likely to be to the woman. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 10:01am
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How is it not many people know about being able to terminate up to 20 weeks? Just curious!! even the midwives in this town all say it has to be before 13 weeks and they should know!
Is it also open to people who just simply do not want the baby or is from 12-20 weeks for medical reasons? ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 10:59am
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have a look on the MOH site... I don't think abortions are really a MWs area of expertise they generally deal with people who are continuing with the pregnancy... yes they are open to everyone who "simply" decides they don't want to continue. They must have two Drs permission - same as before 12 weeks, but the termination takes place at the hospital...
Beyond 12 weeks, termination becomes more complicated and is either performed under a general early in the 2nd trimester or involves going through labour later in the 2nd trimester... Prior to 12 weeks they are carried out while the patient is awake... ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 11:24am
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The procedure for terminating after 1st trimester is different, it requires being induced. This is also why an anatomy scan is done at 20 weeks, as this is currently the cut off for termination. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 12:47pm
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i always knew that it was under 20 weeks..
its a hard one for me to comment on really... i really dont agree with them except for medical reasons ...though i definitely think it should be the mothers choice.... and having to have two docs sign off in a case like Stacey's is ridiculous:( ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 3:38pm
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Yes I do agree what Stacey went through is disgusting. As if that wouldn't have been hard enough. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:02pm
... I decided to respond making the decision to have an abortion is not an easy decision and it is a decision that the woman must live with everyday for the rest of her life, wondering what could have been... whether or not you or any other person "agrees" with this decision is really of no consequence as you don't have to live with the choice that was made. Until you have walked in their shoes, understood the enormity of the decision and the ever lasting pain it can bring about then you really cannot stand and judge IMO....------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:18pm
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I guess it is hard to understand why if a woman is going to feel really guilty or hard to live life wondering, then why make that decision. I have always been told that if you have to think twice, do not do it!!
In saying that I do see where you are coming from. My own sister debated me over this today and said herself that she knows a few young girls that had no support and were pressured into having abortions and that it has haunted them and deeply regretted it. She raised the point that there is no support for these young girls and that in fact even medical professionals say it would be in their best interests to abort which is sad. My intention is not to make those who have chosen or needed to abort feel guilty. I guess I would just like to see more support given to women in these situations not to just use abortion as an option. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:27pm
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I agree with Freckle, and how it affects one to another is also different
Its all an ethical dilema really, but it is most of all a personal choice - we are all Mums or all want to be mums - of course the debate will be slightly one sided - but if your 13 year old told you she was pregnant at 19 weeks - how would you feel In Staceys situation - absolutely bloody shocking! Had I chosen termination - it would have been performed at 23 weeks - so each case needs to be assessed on its merits, or lack of, depending on your view - something that this bill dosent cover In my opinion some of the views are a bit simplistic - its not just a matter of well someone else can take care of your baby if you dont want it it just dosent work like that ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:30pm
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didn't make sense... my brain is mush as the mo ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:53pm
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I think I will leave it now as everyone has difference of opinions and not complaining about that. Has been good to see different views.
Just a last note, if my daughter feel pregnant at a young age I would be sad for her, but would never want her to use abortion as an option. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 7:20pm
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Kazper, once again, if you read the OP it stated please don't come in here for an abortion debate, this is about how the abortion bill should be amended, not whether abortion is right or wrong IYKWIM. You're not going to get much sympathy in here by posting things like you just did.
I had a friend at primary school (yes, PRIMARY school) who got pregnant at 12. I didn't even know until I was 14, because it just wasn't something that even entered my head, I mean I was just starting to think about kissing boys lol. Anyway - she had an abortion, then another at 14. Her mother had her at 15, and her grandmother had her first baby at 15 too. What I'm getting at is with young people, it is actually about education to make good choices in the first place so the cycle doesn't continue. That is a seperate issue. In Caliandjack and other people's case, hey mistakes happen! Cut them some slack. My Dh and I are doing everything possible to never conceive again before he eventually gets the snip (not old enough), but we have both talked about the fact that if it did unfortunately happen, we would terminate. We have our reasons which I don't need to say as they are personal, but other than my mental health, there is no other issues other than not wanting another baby. We are lucky to live in a society where we have that option, as our lives would be affected dramatically by another addition. In other cases, for medical reasons, this is where I think the bill's amended should make things a bit easier (or at least I hope so). I don't believe in having a late abortion for reasons other than medical (most people will know before 20 weeks) but I do believe that termination on medical grounds needs to be a properly managed area of medical care for women. Regarding Stacey's journey (sorry Stacey, but I followed yours a lot and it really touched me about how much heartache you were put through), if there is any way that her and her DH's pain could have been eased by having a simpler and quicker process, I'd be all for it. This is not a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong, it's a discussion on how the medical system can help women who, for whatever reason, are unable to continue a pregnancy and what steps need to be put in place to make the process as seamless as possible. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 7:35pm
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This is an open forum and its expected that debates start on topics such as this.
To clarify the debate had already begun before I joined in. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 7:50pm
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granted Kazper
I still would be in favour of needing 'sign off' to prevent the situation identifying those using it as a form of contraception - although as others have said - Id imagine thats a minority, but also to identify those who may otherwise not seek counselling when they dont recognise that they may need it ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 10 July 2010 at 2:22pm
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*shrugs* I had a termination back when I was 18 to my boyfriend of 6 months, he didn't want a baby , and I didn't feel strong enough to be a parent without support .
Its my cross to bear , and my burden to carry when I read about people who say all that have had abortions are going to hell (I don't mean anyone on here, I've not come across that here so far ) or that we are murderers, horrible people blah blah blah . Im not a horrible person , I was just a person who made a mistake and solved it the best way for me at the time , do I regret it ? sure sometimes, but whats the point of that ? you can't change the past, and if I hadn't done it , I wouldn't have Caitlyn . Life gives you sh*t at times, you just do the best for you , at the end of the day , its you that matters . sorry , I know that wasn't neither here nor there about the debate, I just wanted to give my experience on it ------------- 
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Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 10 July 2010 at 8:07pm
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Sadly i knew someone who did use abortion as a form of contraception she was up to her third when we lost contact, used to work at he supermarket together... long a go. I was awful and there are not many woman who do this.
My concern was back then and still is it was too easy for her to get an abortion. Is there a cut off to how many one woman can have? It saddens me to think she has had more. But that was 12 years ago. 
It affected me so much and still haunts me today, she nearly kept the third baby but had a late abortino because her boyfriend made her -------------
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Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 10 July 2010 at 9:23pm
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that is really sad yummymummy - but if someone can be so heartless as to use abortion as a form of contraception would it not concern you that they would also be a heartless mother?
Im definately not condoning the flippent use of termination - but sometimes the pros of one terminating must out weigh the cons - just something else to throw in the mix of opinions really and to further highlight that it cant be so black and white ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 10 July 2010 at 11:07pm
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Well, when I was a dental assistant , a girl I worked with asked why I had Caitlyn and I told her it was pretty much cos I'd had one abortion and I could never have another (unless for medical reasons )
and her response was "so , i've had 6 and I would do it again " course I don't know if she was telling the truth ...she did talk a lot of BS , but still ! -------------
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 8:25am
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That was kind of rude of her to ask why you had Caitlyn huh! ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: sonne
Date Posted: 11 July 2010 at 10:13pm
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If gender selection can become a reason for late abortion you could always make it a law not to tell the sex of the baby at the 20 week scan but introduce another scan in the third trimester where the sex of the baby can be found out.
As for counselling it should not be compulsory as i personally find it insulting. I am an intelligent women and i don't need someone else to question my choice. There is nothing easy about abortion in my books and I don't need the hassle of having to convince someone else of the state of my mental health. Make it optional. Especially when you already had to see two other doctors to sign off. It would be better to see just your normal GP or in later pregnancy another specialist? ( Mind you though, their waiting lists are too long!) Why is it when we speak about abortion it is always the woman who gets the flak? Where is the man in this debate? Are they not responsible for the pregnancy to happen as well? Why do they get no consequences to deal with? It isn't just the woman's fault. |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 9:40am
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Thanks for pointing this out sonne, its often the absence of the male partner that forces women to make the decision to terminate. It also seems far to easy for men to ignore their responsiblities if the woman decides not to terminate and keep the child. The amendement to the Abortion Bill is for termination in late pregnancy past 20 weeks, while it is possible, its highly unlikely someone who doesn't want their pregnancy would get to 20 weeks without doing something about it. I only scraped in by a few weeks as I didn't realise I was pregnant until I was 9 weeks along. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 1:52pm
Trying to not get caught up in this (trying!) but just have to add this - yes you may be an intelligent woman who has carefully made a decision, but not every woman who goes for an abortion is. ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 3:42pm
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I was in no way suggesting that people that get counselling are unintelligent. Even intelligent people can benefit from counselling. It isn't about "questioning your choice" either, it's about working through the emotions that come with your decisions. I think that pre- and post-abortion counselling would benefit anyone, it would take someone with a heart of stone not be affected by a decision like abortion, and while I accept that some people are capable of dealing with these emotions on their own, the vast majority of people that I have come into contact with are still dealing with the fallout of deciding to abort their baby, whatever the reason.
I definitely don't think abortion is a black and white issue, there are many shades of grey... the only thing that I do not agree with is the use of abortion as a form of "contraception". Other than that, I think individual situations all need to be dealt with differently. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 4:13pm
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Counselling was a compulsory part of having a termination when I had mine, mostly I think it was for the hospital to make sure I was making an informed decision and I knew what and why I was doing it.
I think it helped cement my decision actually as on balance it was the right thing to do for me and the situation I was in. Interestingly enough I probably had more support to terminate than to keep the baby. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 6:04pm
just saw this now , yeah ! she was a pretty abrupt rude person ...and (OT) a crap dental assistant, she would often get annoyed at the dentist and storm out mid procedure ...amazingly she didn't get fired ! -------------
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:02pm
 ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:03pm
and this is what bothers me, it really shouldn't be like that. Yes there should be support, I'm not saying abortion should be illegal or anything like that but at the moment it seems to me like abortion is the first response to an unplanned pregnancy and that is the bit that bothers me. There should be the same if not more support to either keep or adopt the baby out rather than abort. But I suppose from a social services, medical professional, economic view abortion is easier and cheaper. And what worries me from the other stories like the women Kelly worked with is that if some women are already having multiple abortions under the current system then how would making abortion easier stop that, and obviously for some women they are learning nothing from it which is sad for them as well as for all the poor babies and those type of women would, perhaps, also be the type to abort late term babies for no other reason than they have changed their mind, or only just found out or whatever. I'm in support for medical reasons, yes things in that area do need to be made better, but I'm scared about the way it is being done and I'm not just scared for the babies but also for young women making decisions they may later regret. |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:33pm
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When I had found out I was pregnant with the baby I terminated , I was at Family planning , and the first thing the nurse said after telling me the test was positive was "I can give you information for a termination " , it was like she didn't even consider that I may want to keep the baby .
In that case, I didn't want to , but still , if I had , I would have felt really scared asking for information on going through with pregnancy when they clearly thought a termination was what I should be doing . I don't think thats right -------------
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 7:53pm
Yeah, when you are young it seems to be the first thing they mention. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 8:12pm
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The only information I received in regards to keeping the baby, came from my friends mum and was a brochure with a strong religious slant to it.
It really wasn't what I needed or found useful. That's probably for me the biggest thing going against pro-lifer's is their religious stance, if they could take that out of the equation and provide unbiased information and advise, I'd be more receptive to it. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 8:37pm
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I am totally keeping out of this debate WOW. It made me rethink everything I thought I 'knew' about such topics Anyway, not trying to go OT but it would be a very good read for those considering how they feel about the OP -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 8:38pm
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That's kind of whay I brought up this book as it's about as unbiased as you can get IMO ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 8:43pm
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I am a very intelligent woman and I chose counselling - not so someone could question my choice - I had no problems having a termination nor do for a moment i regret or question my choice - I find it quite insulting that you insult my intelligence by making such a statement Sonne
Like caliaandjack said it was more about ticking the boxes, ensuring I was making an informed decision, and I like to keep an open mind - I dont always have all the answers or know all the options - and I wasnt afraid to ask I quite agree with little bug, it must be an individual assessment based not only on the term of the pregnancy or any medical issues but also socio-economic influences which do play a part in such situations. I once worked for a youth health centre and have seen many a heart breaking story unfold - and as someone mentioned earlier - it would have been an optimal time to break the cycle with many of these young women ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: sonne
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 9:57pm
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I am a very intelligent woman and chose not to have counselling. And that is the great thing about making it optional. You can go for counselling if you want to or not, but you should not be made to just because others feel it is best for you etc.
Some have mentioned that counselling worked for them but that does not mean it would work for me or everybody. As for the women who chose abortion as a form of birth control, what can you say to them. I have the feeling you could restrict the abortion law even more or scrape it but somehow they would find a way to keep doing it. And how many of them are there anyway? I think we are talking about a minority and not the majority of women who do have abortions and need these services. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 10:20pm
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I think the point they are making is that how do you know if the woman is a woman who doesn't need counselling or someone who is in severe need of help, because with an opt out system they could and probably would opt out as well.
And I think the other point is that intelligence is entirely seperate to emotion. I've made lots of intellectual decisions that I knew were in my best interests (like leaving a bad relationship) but even though I knew it was for the best on a intellectual level it put me through an emotion rollercoaster, the counselling is aimed to help with that as well as to assess the mental stability of the women wanting the abortion in the first place and that counselling may help some women make better choices so they don't end up back in the same situation. If that means a few women who don't think they need counselling had to sit through a few sessions, what's the big deal? surely that is better than the risk of other women slipping through the cracks? |
Posted By: Raspberryjam
Date Posted: 12 July 2010 at 10:29pm
This actually raises a few points for me.. Not everyone who accesses a 'counselling' service is all woe is me - some use it for their own reflection, some to access information, some people actually use it for positive reflection when they dont want nosy family members giving advice In my opinion many woman see a stigma around counselling services - and perhaps if they did use them our stats for termination wouldnt be so horrific - especially in our young people For those using termination as contraception - there is plenty you could say - the majority of these woman would lack self esteem, have on going issues , and limited resources , even if only to identify other needs. There is no particular type of woman turning up for a termination I think for the sake of social concience and service we would be better serving the community to catch those in need , by keeping counselling compulsory ------------- http://lilypie.com]
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 9:07am
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The compulsory counselling for me was 1 session...barely lasting 1 hour that's it. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: sonne
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 9:50am
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This discussion was about the amended abortion bill and a lot of women have shared their stories and raised a few questions or issues. One was counselling. I like the idea of counselling and think it should be available, i just do not want it compulsory. That is why i brought my opinion forward as someone who does not want it. We can not all have the same opinions especially on an emotional charged topic such as abortion.
I am totally aware that this is my personal opinion. As for is it a hardship- no, just cumbersome and personally i would be more inclined to turn up with a book and read through that session. |
Posted By: deodora
Date Posted: 13 July 2010 at 2:59pm
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Hi
The proposed bill state that abortion would be available on demand until 24 weeks. After 24 weeks it would be still be available if signed off by 1 medical practioner if they thought it medically appropriate and with regard to "current and future physical, psychological and social circumstances" . The quoted words allow for almost any reasoning, they are so broad and intangible so as to be almost meaningless. This means that viable lives could be ended. 23 weeks, 34 weeks even 39 + 5. Whilst some would argue most medical practiioners would not provide the necessary consent the reality is some would. Even one it too many.. How anyone could support this is beyond me. While the current law may be seen by some as flawed at least it recognises that there is a human person involved. It is different than having a tooth removed. Mahatma Gandhi said "You can judge a society by how they treat their weakest members." What would this proposed bill passing into law say about New Zealand society - something pretty horrific I think. On another note I have read a number of comments about those who have multiple abortions. Out of interest I looked up the stat and apparently 37% of the abortions carried out in NZ last year were on women who had had a least one already. |
Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 14 July 2010 at 3:23pm
Well said. I have been battling about posting on this as it is an emotional topic and you managed to convey what I wanted to say. I second that there needs to be more support to keep a baby. I was at uni and 19 when I found out I was pregnant. (I was on the pill too) The first words out of the doctors mouth was about termination. This I couldn't do. I had friends who blamed me for ruining the fathers life and for me being selfish because I didn't have a termination. |
Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 15 July 2010 at 4:22pm
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well said deodora agree completely.
That's awful Kiwi2 that people were encouraging your to terminate, the society we live in is not at all supportive sometimes. Also if a man is big enough to have sex and they should be able to deal with the consequnces. I mean really ruining the dad's life how can that be when they easily walk away..... not that they should of course! -------------
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Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:36pm
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We were both kids really and we broke up for about a year. I was a single parent for a while but 3.5 years later we got married and 10 years later he is still sitting on the couch opposite me. The one friend I lost over it all had just had a termination and I can understand she was raw and justifying her choice. I didn't see it that way at the time though. Another friend apologised a number of years later not because she said anything but because she didn't support me. That meant a lot.
ETA to apologise for being a bit off topic. |
Posted By: amme_eilyk
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 7:48pm
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I dont believe that abortion should be a criminal act there are many legitimate reasons to choose abortion and I believe that it should be a choice.
I think that the cut off should be before the 20 week scan unless it is for medical reasons. I do not think that there should be a cut off for medical reasons, but as soon as the baby becomes viable on its own there is no point in abortion as the procedure would only give a premature baby. And I think the 20 week cut off is ridiculous for medical reasons as you are asking someone to decide in a matter of days whether to keep the baby. I think that the the two signature policy should be kept, however it should be changed to a doctor and a counsellor (i think the counsellor is especially important to young people to ensure that they arent being pressured into the procedure). the doctor explains the medical implications and potential side effects for the procedure with the counsellor there to explain the emotional implications. If not for the two signatures all gp/ob should be able to sign. |
Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 02 August 2010 at 8:15pm
| amme_eilyk - it doesn't mean you give birth to a premmie. its a possibility but you are actually given a pill a couple of days before being induced which means the likely outcome is a stillborn |
Posted By: Kalimirella
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 11:10am
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Well personally I think if the baby becomes viable but extreme premmie (given not bad medical) why not continue and put up for adoption if you really don't want a baby that much? ------------- Kiara is 3 and Teagan is 2, now we're expecting our long awaited 3rd! http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: amme_eilyk
Date Posted: 03 August 2010 at 2:03pm
that is what I meant, once it gets to that stage then there is no need for the baby to die. |