Miss Universe
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Topic: Miss Universe
Posted By: GuestGuest
Subject: Miss Universe
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:11pm
| I was speaking to a friend about the the Miss Universe pagent yesterday and I was quite surprised by her reaction to it. She thinks that the pagent is disgusting, and represents blatant exploitation of women. I have never thought about it that way, I remember watching it when I was young and loved looking at all of the beautiful women. I've always thought it was just a bit of fun. What do you think? |
Replies:
Posted By: .Mel
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:13pm
I loved it when I was younger, I remember getting my pen and paper out and writing down my faves, and then trying to pick the winner!  I haven't watched it for many years though. It doesn't bother me that it's on though... each to their own  ------------- Mr Mellow (16) Miss Attitude (8) Destructa Kid (3) 
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Posted By: BugTeeny
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:21pm
I find it hilarious 
When I was younger I loved to try to pick the winner, too. But, I'm with Mel. Each to their own. If I watch it now, it's purely to watch to see if they fall down or say something stupid ------------- 
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:34pm
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Can't say I'm a fan of beauty pagents, surprised they're still running. They're up there with ANTM for the reality factor. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">   [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: pumpkino
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:38pm
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My sister and I used to love watching it and ranking them all, and then seeing if we were right - if we were male I'm sure people would say it was exploitative but we little girls loved it!
I haven't watched it since I was about 12 and have no interest in it now but I don't see any harm. No one is forcing these girls to enter and in fact it is *apparently* highly competitive. They know what they're getting themselves into. If people don't like it they need not enter or watch!! |
Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:46pm
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They don't bother me.
I figure there are woman who are more beautiful than others and pretty much everyone (if they will admit it or not) can all appreciate a beautiful woman. Sure, being judged based on your looks is fairly shallow, but if YOU want to be (ie you've entered the pagent) then why should it bother anyone else? I accept that I'm never going to look like a beauty queen, I'm fairly slim(ish) not terribly ugly but not good looking and that there are many people more attractive than me. I've known this for a long time. Watching beautiful women win Miss Universe was not going to make me bulimic as a child or a plastic surgery junkie as an adult. People are all different, some are fat, some are slim, some are intelligent and some aren't. Do we not have University Challenge either as we don't want our children to feel self concious about not being smart? I tend to think that women who get offended by such things tend to be people who are insecure about themselves and don't like that they may be compared with the "beauties" they don't feel like they measure up to. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: tishy
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:00pm
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Not my cup of tea.
Not because I find it offensive but TBH I would have more fun watching grass grow than watching things like Miss Universe or other beauty related reality TV shows 
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:08pm
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I'm not offended by them, its more the message its sending to young girls, my niece is only 14 and that's the age group they're aimed at. After all most of the contestants aren't much older than her. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:15pm
But I think the message is a positive one for young girls. All of the contestants obviously eat well and work out in order to have the bodies that they do. To me that is promoting a healthy lifestyle. Childhood obesity is rampant in this country, surely it is a good thing for young women to see what they can achieve if they eat healthy food and exercise compared with eating junk and sitting in front of the TV. |
caliandjack wrote:Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:25pm
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I don't like them... I don't believe they promote a healthy message as these woman often represent what is not necessarily obtainable. Not everyone can have a perfect body despite healthy eating and lifestyle, some comes down to bone structure, body shape and genetics. I just don't think judging people purely on looks (which are largely beyond our control) is a good message for very impressionable teenagers...
------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Kellyfer
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:28pm
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I don't think you can say it's exploitative because the women choose it for themselves and they are not forced to do anything against their will. It's a competition and there are rules, but they're aware of them before they commit. Sex slavery is exploitation, beauty pageants aren't.
As for the message it sends to young girls, I think it's all in how you back it up with your own parenting. On the whole I think pageant girls are more on the healthy side of looking good than models for example. There is a generalisation that pageant girls are vapid and stupid (which may or may not be justified) but if you teach your daughters that you should look after both your body and your mind then they're probably on the right track. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:46pm
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I'm not a fan but in the each to their own camp. I used to watch when I was little and loved picking who I though should win!
But I guess I got put off by friends who have done that and in particular one friend who also does ballet, she's stick thin - same height as me but weighs 45kg and thinks she is fat!  (imagine what she must think of me and I am only 52kg!)
Anyway while I think it's good fun and all, I wouldn't want dd involved because some people take it so seriously! I want dd to have healthy expectations of her body and to be comfortable in her own skin and not feel pressured to look a certain way or be a certain way. I wouldn't call it exploitative because women choose to do it, just like people who choose to be in x-rated movies, etc. They choose to do that. Although, yes some people do get exploited though! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:49pm
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My cousin is 14, she is the shortest in her class , but tells everyone shes down to earth , and when someone teased her about it , she said
" and you're ugly ...one day I'll grow " (she will most likely , her parents are both tall) Shes more concerned with her role in a new Katherine Mansfield movie which will be on TV in a few months , and winning the award at school for all round achiever .....she couldn't care less about Miss Universe . I forgot it still existed ... ------------- 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 3:52pm
How is it explotitive, what is it exploting exactly? Actually University Challenge does still exist (the UK version). There are tons of similar type shows I could have used instead, I'm smarter than a fifth grader etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with teenagers comparing themselves to models & celebs, it has always been done. They are beautiful, healthy girls, what is wrong with them being proud of how they look and wanting to compete? ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:28pm
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Haven't read the replies, but I know someone who was in the Miss World 2007. Her family is very religious and her parents went with her to the compitition and they said it was very well run, not explotation at all. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:42pm
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I don't think they're beautiful and healthy at all, that's what I don't like about them. The look skinny and anemic too me.
I guess with the birth of my daughter pending, I'm having to take a different perspective on these things. Young teenage girls are ending up starving themselves trying to look like some air brushed fake image of a someone who is a genetic freak of nature in magazines and on television. They can say the contestants are intelligent and smart women as much as they like, but they're being judged on how they look. For every finalist in Miss Universe there will be a dozen contestants who missed out, who will be thinking if they diet more and exercise more they might make it too. Some may choose to do it, you can bet a lot of girls are pushed into it by parents and friends wanting to make money out of their celebrity. That's exploitation whether its desired or not. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: M2K
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:48pm
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I don't find it offensive, those girls work hard to do they do and obviously enjoy entering pagents.
I find the childrens beauty pagents 'odd' to say the least, I mean the over the top, $1000 dollar dress ones, fixing childrens teeth and spray tans. But has anyone seen Little Miss Sunshine? Love that movie! ------------- 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:51pm
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C&J do you mean anorexic rather than anemic?
A few years ago there was a girl in the pageant who had a diet of just tomatoes for months before the comp and she had a flipping heart attack because tomatoes is not enough for someone to live off! She died too. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:52pm
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I love Little Miss Sunshine, great movie. I know sisters that went into Miss Manawatu together, 1 of them won and ended up being the girl I know who was in Miss World and Miss NZ. The sister that lost didn't mind and in no way made her think of ways to better herself for the next time. She took it as a confidence boast and went on with life with better delf confidence. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: Delli
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:53pm
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I don't like them at all.
However, they are nowhere near as bad as child beauty pageants - those I hate with a passion. ETA - Little Miss Sunshine was an awesome movie! Cracked me up! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: .Mel
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:01pm
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I know who wins Thanks TV1! ------------- Mr Mellow (16) Miss Attitude (8) Destructa Kid (3)
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Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:01pm
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I dont have an issue with pagents, I like watching them. ------------- |
Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:03pm
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Young girls who starve themselves are a minority and are likely to do so anyway regardless of whether they watch Miss Universe.
It annoys me that being skinny nowadays is seen as a negative, as if the only way you can be slim is if you are sticking your head down the toilet every day. For the majority of slim women it takes hard work and discipline to look the way they do which makes them good role models for young women. Sure, not all women can have the same body shape as the Miss Universe contestants but this is an example of "parental guidance is recommended" in order to have that sort of discussion. |
Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:21pm
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Love little miss sunshine! So cute! But thats a good example of for fun and not being so pushy and serious!
ETA: Each woman is designed to look a certain way, some people aren't meant to be skinny just like some people aren't meant to be big, tall, short... etc! ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:47pm
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Im actually amused that CJ is the only person who thinks the pagaents may send a bad body image to our young girls...
I have no problems with them myself but I am in no way going to deny the fact that many young girls WILL compare themselves to these women and will think its a natural body type. These women dont just eat well and exercise to look the way the do.. sure some may but a lot of them do eat crazy diets leading up to the contests and that is not healthy. That said, watching pageants alone is not going to create a negative view of ones body... I think also the term "skinny" conjurs different images for people.. I picture an underwight and unhealthy person whereas "slim" conjurs the image of someone who looks after themselves and has a good body. -------------   
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:00pm
Perfectly said -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:03pm
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She's not!!! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:09pm
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I have no problem with them. I actually think they are better than E chanel. Watching the hollywood teenagers and early 20's behaviour and size 0 bodies like the hills etc is far worse in my opinion. There is no way to keep your teen away from it either. I have a 13 year old girl.
At least miss universe isn't all sex, drugs and alcohol related. There is a bit but not as much as general life and mags of hollywood drama. |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:12pm
nope I said I the same thing over the page too
Having a teenager of my own I have seen how much peer pressure, and media influence how our kids view themselves... Eating disorders may not occur in the majority of children but they are highly prevalent and although it is thought these people have a predisposition to them outside influences (such as media) appear to also play a causal role from what I understand... surely a competition based purely on looks is not the best influence for our teenagers.... and Mel I agree skinny to me sounds like an underweight waife, whereas slim sounds healthy ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:12pm
If you'd asked my opinion 6 months ago, I'd probably not have cared either. However with a little girl of my own the way, I'm becoming more aware of the external influences that she'll encounter. I can't wrap her up in cotton wool or keep her locked in her room till she's 25. I do however want her to be a confident and happy person. As her mum there is only so much I can do to. Personally there is so much I'd love for her to do with her life, worrying about calories is not one of them. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:24pm
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Kiwi2- true re E channel lol...but I'm not sure if that's a good basis of comparison! It must be so, so hard to keep your teen away from stuff like that too ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:26pm
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OMG are we the same person?! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: My3Sons
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:43pm
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I didnt realise it was still going either lol, not something I'd watch but it doesnt bother me, I might feel differently about it though if I had daughters! ------------- Mum to Mr 10, Mr 6 and Mr 4 
 
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 6:54pm
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My daughter knows she is not a movie star, or a model, sure shes only 8 ,but shes been told everyday how beautiful she is , not a day goes by when I don't tell her shes beautiful and that she makes me proud , she is confident and happy , apart from the usual dramas with school friends , and if she ever watches programs like this , she just impersonates them in a "im walking a long the cat walk " way .
How she views herself when she is a teen , well , all I can hope is that she still feels as loved as she does now . And im realistic, I remember what it was like being a teen , I felt very self concious about my body / freckles looks etc, but it had more to do with my school peers, not anything on TV . In the end you can't wrap them up in cotton wool , they will see things that may , or may not have a negative affect on how they view themselves, you just have to start early and do the best you can in teaching them how to be proud of themselves -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 8:10pm
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Oops sorry Freckle, missed that LOL
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 8:30pm
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I have just stopped being a teen in 'todays' world so know what it's like.
I think it is important for us to instill in our daughters that they are beautiful the way they are no matter what! Etc. I like what Kelly has just said but I think now days they do compare themselves to what they see on TV as well as their peers. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 9:28pm
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some do , some don't .
It really depends on the child , as I said on the previous page, my cousin has no interest in her looks at all ,shes more likely to feel inadequate against contestants on "university challenge " I know plenty of other teenage girls like that too . C doesn't feel any comparison to girls on TV (helps that I tell her all the time how much makeup they wear ) she feels more comparison to kids at school . -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Parki
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 9:29pm
Completely agree. At the end of they day it comes down to the environment in which your child is raised & the values, beliefs & morals your parents have taught you. I'm so sick of hearing people blame the 'entertainment world' for eveything that is wrong in society! It's Kate Moss' fault my daughter won't eat dinner tonight..... My son would never have hit that boy at school if he hadn't seen it on Home & Away. Come on.... A beauty pageant isn't any different to the everyday celebrities that females (and males to a degree) of every age group are exposed to. I watched the pageant tonight and actually thought 99% of the woman on there were gorgeous and healthy looking. Like The Kelly said I was more worried about comparing myself to peers when I was a younger and when I was an impressionable teenager, it was my Mum who was guiding me in the right direction & reminding me every step of the way how fabulous I was! |
Posted By: Delli
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 11:07pm
Not the only one
As I said on the previous page. I don't like pageants at all. To elaborate - I think they are a sexist and outdated competition, celebrating only one type of beauty. Quite a bit of it is fake beauty at that. Sure, home environment has a lot to do with how children perceive themselves. Sure, you compare yourselves to immediate peers. In the end though, in this day and age, there is no getting away from the media. It's everywhere. You can't ban everything that objectifies women (or men for that matter) but I really don't think beauty pageants are necessary or helpful in improving the self-images of impressionable women or the images of what impressionable men think women should look like. (I did have the word young before impressionable but really, we are all rather impressionable - It depends on whether we are able to rationalise those impressions or not.) P.S. Though this has more to do with adverts and airbrushing than pageants - I thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U - this video was rather interesting. ETA - I wouldn't go as far to say they should ban beauty pageants, but I DO say they should ban CHILD beauty pageants. Those I do use the word "disgusting" to describe. Also, I've never heard anyone blame the entertainment industry for everything that is wrong with society (if people actually do, it's rather naive of them to think that) but I do think it's fair to say that it does have it's fair share of influence. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: minik8e
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 11:48pm
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Doesn't anyone wonder why, if it's a celebration of beautiful woman, or women who are more than just beautiful, there are no size 14 (as in, NZ size 14) women in the competition? Surely they are beautiful too?
I don't think the entertainment world is to blame, I think the normal everyday world we are raised in is to blame, with a healthy dose of blame going towards parents also. |
Posted By: nathansmummy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:13am
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I'm a bit on the fence about them - just as I am on the fence about magazines etc. I mean, I'll read that magazines and have some interest in them - but not get sucked in. I guess I'm that way about the pagents etc.
However, when I sit down and think about it, I'd have to question whether we should have a competition for the best looking person? Somehow it grates against my values and I have a son - but if I have a daughter, I would worry about the messages she is getting. If I had a daughter or one on the way, I would want to protect her from any messages that might make her feel bad about her body or anything about her. For most people, that look is unattainable and unrealistic. You can't protect your children from the world, unfortunately, but you can teach them about taking pride in their appearance and taking care of their health but realising it's what's on the inside that really matters. I can definitely see where CandJ is coming from. In terms of exploiting women - a woman doesn't have to "not give her consent" in order to be exploited. The definition of exploitation is to basically to use someone's best attributes manipulatively - unethically, selfishly or unfairly. Some might argue that to treat a woman as a physical object and to focus on that is exploitative especially when there is so much of our culture that focuses on this - supported by tv, advertising, magazines and the media. The pagents do obviously try to incorporate personality etc. but let's face it, it's a token gesture and even then it's very false and superficial. So although the pagents don't bother me per se - perhaps they should. There's a lot of messages we receive passively through the media that ought to be challenged. |
Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:29am
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I don't think the entertainment world is to blame and I don't think pageants are to blame for low self esteem etc. I do however think it is wise to restrict things as a parent. I have stopped getting trashy mags as I don't want my daughter reading them excessively. There are other things she can read about that are more educational and relevant than who did what in hollywood. Which leads to my comment about the E channel. I would let my daughter watch a pageant above watching E channel. It is a case of which is the lesser evil. Parenting has definately taught me to pick my battles. Showing beautiful people on stage as opposed to showing beautiful people get away with DUI and terrible behaviour.
Having lived in texas my daughter knew girls in the pageant life and it is almost a competitive sport. I don't think it is about who is the most beautiful it is more about who is groomed the best and has put in the hours to perfect what they are being judged on. They do work extremely hard at what they do and it is not just a case of you are pretty you win. Everything is choreographed and orchestrated. I think we do need to realise and teach our children that life is not fair all the time. Not all people can be beautiful just like not all people can be talented at singing, sports etc. In real life not everyone wins. ETA if this topic had come up when she was under 4 I probably would have been more inclined to be critical of her watching them. Just like she was never going to wear makeup or have her ears peirced lol. Parenting definately evolves as your child grows. |
Posted By: Panda289
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 7:44am
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When i was younger i loved beauty pageants because of all the beautiful girls, but as i grew up i realised i was never going to look quite like them and so they started to bug me (mostly because i was jealous )
Then my SIL last year won Miss Manawatu and this year competed in Miss NZ, she is the same size as me 10-12 and my age 24 so i was very happy she won and went to see her compete in Miss NZ where she was admittedly the curviest girl but also very natural (apart from the spray tan she was made to wear, and the ton of makeup) and even though she didn't win she had a great time (she did win Miss Friendship) and it totally changed my mind again about pageants as the girls for the most part were pretty down to earth, beautiful of course and they all looked healthy. Ria went on to compete in Miss Universe and she looked better than some of the super skinny girls there. ETA - i was surprised to find out that you actually need to be sponsored to compete in any of the pageants in NZ, my SIL had to approach businesses in her area and ask them to sponsor her as opposed to this audition type thing i naively thought it was! Also i lost more weight than her for my wedding this past February feeling the pressure to look good then so i think there is pressure everywhere like others have said. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: MamaT
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 9:16am
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I personally don't have a problem with them and if I had a daughter I certainly wouldn't ban her from watching them. I think it is more important to watch with her and discuss it all openly and honestly rather than pretend these issues don't exist. They do exist and unfortunately it isn't something that anyone can escape. Men and women around the world are judged on their looks for everything. Research shows that the "good looking" person will be hired over the "ugly" one, the "good looking" person is perceived as more trust worthy etc etc.
IMO there are far worse people in the world to be looked up to and emulated. -------------  
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 9:55am
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miss mexico won!
i'm the same as mel - i remember watching them as a little girl and writing down who i thought would win... it was a great game. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 10:00am
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[QUOTE=MamaT]Research shows that the "good looking" person will be hired over the "ugly" one, the "good looking" person is perceived as more trust worthy etc etc./[QUOTE] ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 10:26am
| They have Plus Size models and pagents nowadays so they have come a long way with that. A beautiful women is still perceived as tall and slim and I don't think that is going to change any time soon. |
Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 10:32am
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Well considering my sport of choice has everything to do with how I look in a bikini .. I dont have a problem with beauty pageants.
I also dont think I am sending the wrong message to my child ... she sees that I work out and eat healthily to look the way that I do and Im quite proud of my accomplishments, which is something that I think all children should learn. I also think that nothing is unobtainable .. reach for the sky, even if you miss, you will fall among the stars! ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year  http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 10:49am
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I'm curious LF how many of the women competiting in your sport are taking supplements and drugs to create their bodies? ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:04am
I would say most of us take some form of supplementation. It takes quite a lot of protein to build any quality muscle and eating it in its raw state would take quite a bit of effort. Obviously Im never going to be a tall skinny white woman, but I can (and do) strive to be the best "me" that I can be and i think that is a good message to send to our young people. Oh and FYI .. anyone can get a lean body and washboard abs through diet and exercise alone, you dont need any supplementation for that its not unobtainable for the ordinary person. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:09am
| Some women are overweight because of genetics or a health condition but not all. The vast majority of women can be slim if they eat right and exercise. Sorry but size 14 is big in my opinion! |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:22am
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Even though that's the average size of NZ women. Which going by your suggestion what is normal is seen as unhealthy. That's where the whole body image obcessions come from. OT - The thing about fashion mags I don't like is the models are young women modelling fashions aimed at older women, as its the older women with the $$ to afford the clothes being modelled. When you've got some 19-20 year old marketing hundreds of dollars clothes at those that can afford it that is obviously unrealistic. A friend of the family owns TCD which makes fashions for curvy women, she had to gate crash NZ Fashion Week to even get a look in, cause the industry is so obcessed with being young and skinny. She now has a regular show and its one of the most popular. Cause believe it or not women love seeing something real on the catwalk. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:23am
I do have to agree that size 14 is above "average" however I dont necessarily think all people of size 14 are fat .. you get fat size 10 people too. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:25am
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I'll get off my soap box now, and agree to disagree.. Feel like I'm the only one who prefers to keep it real. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: MamaT
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:51am
Just because that is the average size of NZers doesn't mean it isn't big. We are afterall a nation that has high obesity levels.
Like LF said though there are many over weight size 8 & 10's. -------------
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Posted By: IVFGirl1111
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:53am
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Havent read everything here - but I just wanted to say that when I watched it on prime last night I said when it started to DH that Miss Mexico should win!
And just to add my 2 cents in, when I was a 14 I was definately still overweight (probably because Im so short), when I was a 12 I felt like I had a pretty good figure - just got to get back to that 12 now thats the hardest part! ------------- TTC 6 years IVF it is IVF/ICSI round one 10 eggs, 8 mature, 3 fertilised BFN IVF/ICSI #2 = 22 eggs! 20 mature, 15 fertilised, 1 fresh transfer and 2 frosties BFN 2 Frosties still in freezer thank god |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 11:58am
C&J- I totally agree with everything you have said. The problem is that some people are saying' this is how it is now, therefore it's ok and not gonna change etc'....well they said that about slavery and women voting too. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:00pm
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I dont think you can say a size of clothing defines if you are fit and healthy... as LF you can be a fat 10... there is more to it than your dress size!
Even at 60kg and a size 10-12 I look great but I am still chubby with an out of proportion tummy... But I felt good, certainly wasnt parading around in a bikini (I will leave that to LF, her tummy looks fab) and with some more toning probably would have dropped down to a 8-10 but I was ok with my body. I was happy to still have a small amount of insulation for the winter -------------
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:08pm
"Average" doesn't equate to "Normal", that is a big leap to make. The average is size 14 because there are so many obese women out there that skew the stats. |
Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:24pm
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Again I agree with LR .. our high obsesity rate enables a size 14 to be average, but I dont think it should be an "ideal to aim for".
I've heard people argue that they dont want their daughters to be subjected to beauty pageants and to be aiming for "unobtainable beauty" but I would find it highly unlikely that you would want their daughters to be fat. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:28pm
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By the same token not everyone who is a size 14 or bigger is overweight/obese or unhealthy and unfit. That's why I don't like beauty pagents cause they try to create a one size fits all ideal of what is attractive. Even the term 'beauty' is missleading it should be the most 'pretty' as 'beauty' is about far more than how you look. At least that's the message I want my daughter and nieces to hear and understand. How you look is only a part of who you its not the only thing thats important. Beauty Pagents make it as though its what's most important.
------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:30pm
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Personally I would love to be a size 14 & probably aim for a size 12 at the smallest. I am not interested in being a number but more interested in being in a healthy range & to have a better choice when buying off the rack.
I remember the super models like Cindy Crawford etc now they were built...they had sexy figures, looked like women & they were beautiful....after them models were called models not super models & they all look the same. We used to watch pageants when I was little & try & pick the winner. I have not watched them in yrs tho..& what is it they all want would peace... Size & looks don't always go together
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:36pm
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I don't think you give your neice and daughter enough credit for having the intelligence to work out for themselves that your exterior appearance is not the most important part of who you are. I don't feel any less of a beautiful woman with the knowledge that I'd never be able to enter such a pagent, perhaps a little envious but that is it.
Personally, I'd rather my daughter aim to be fit and healthy based on the figure of one of the Miss Universe contestants than what you call normal, a size 14 (generally) overweight person. I don't understand why being judged based on your looks is any different than being based on your intelligence or your ability to excel at a particular sport. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:49pm
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For me its a huge difference as for the most part you can't change how you look, that's largely determined by genetics. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:51pm
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This is how I see it ...
For all the people that don't like or approve of these pageants, there are plenty that do . Therefore they will probably stay for a while yet . So , if I don't want my daughter to watch them atm , I will just not watch them myself, not hard, I have no interest in them anyway . I know I can't change the opinion of everyone on what is beauty , to me it is and should be , on the inside, but even I am guilty of picking someones flaws if they have an extraordinarily large nose, or bad skin etc, but what I WANT to feel and believe is that true beauty comes from being a good person , and as I said , I can't convince the world of that , people see things how they want to see them , But I can start at home, with myself and my attitude and my daughter ,(and son but atm he doesn't care) I hope that if I can teach my daughter she is beautiful on the inside and out, that being a kind person is more important than how she looks to other people , it will be one more person in the world who feels this way . Perhaps its naive , and she will be obsessed with her looks when shes a teen , if thats the case I will cross that bridge when it comes to it , in the meantime , I will have faith in myself , and faith in my daughter , that she will remember my words . -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:53pm
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On a side note .. I had this very discussion with my work colleagues (who are all men).
One pointed out that its a sport like any other because the girls train for it (which they do) .. he also pointed out that the most beautiful girl will not win if she is not articulate, doesnt stand correctly to ensure she looks tiny in the waist etc etc, so it comes down to more than beauty. I thought that was an interesting prospective. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:54pm
But so is sporting ability and although you can study a lot, intelligence is also pretty pre-determined. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 12:55pm
How tall you are can't be changed (unless you go to China and get your legs lengthened  ) but how fat you are can be!
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Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:04pm
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I actually think intelligence is genetic also .. stupid kids turn into stupid adults even with application. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:05pm
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That's arse! You can't change your height, your skin colour or your body shape/build by any other means than surgery or artificial means. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:09pm
| I think you are more pre-disposed to be smart if your parents are but generally intelligence is something that anyone can achieve with hard work, much like a great body. |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:18pm
where do you get your stats from? |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:20pm
no, Mr and Mrs Wormwood were incredibly stupid, and their daughter Matilda was a genius -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:21pm
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How do you determine what is a great body? ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:23pm
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Just out of interest (cos I don't watch much tv)....how many shows/contests are there judging the intelligence of people? I remember Mastermind 100 years ago and a bit of University Challenge..... and TBH I'm not sure if I've ever seen TV coverage of the Pulitzer prize awards or The Nobel Peace Prize, they barely get coverage in mainstream media, I assume cos they're not sexy enough. Correct me if I'm wrong on that though! I also totally agree that as a nation we are becomming fatter and that a size 14 may or may not be 'fat', depending upon who we are talking about! No one wants to see their children grow up obese; I would've thought we want our kids to grow up healthy physically, intellectually and spiritually.... and not be judged soley on any one part of our being alone. And just as an aside- LR- it will be interesting to see if your views on how girls are raised into women are the same when you are the mother of a daughter, cos I know I certainly care alot more than I used to! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:34pm
I dont need stats .. Even with application, intelligence is pretty much genetically determined. Yes with EXTREMELY hard work a person with low/er intelligence can excel, it could not be compared to a person with above average intelligence. Just like someone with natural sporting ability will outdo someone without natural ability if they both train in the same manner - actually most of the time the person with natural ability can not train at all and outdo someone with less ability who has trained hard. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:35pm
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Mine have too. I guess I'm starting thinking more as my daughters mother, rather than the beautiful independent intelligent woman that I already am.  ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: lilfatty
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:36pm
I disagree with the change your body shape .. you can do that through training. (which I dont think is artificial). And no I dont think all dumb adults have dumbs kids .. just like not all good looking adults have good looking kids, I guess God makes that decision. ------------- Mummy to Issy (3) and Elias (18 months) I did it .. 41 kgs gone! From flab to fab in under a year http://www.femininefitness.co.nz/category/blog - LFs weight blog
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:38pm
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its been scientifically proven that facial beauty is a symetrical face and that we are more attracted to these types of faces... robert winston i think touched on it in one of his series...
there are definitely things that can be changed about a body to make you feel/look more "beautiful". working out, self tanners, hair extensions, make up, and thats all without cosmetic surgery... ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:43pm
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oh and i think you will find too that a size 14 years ago is not the same as a size 14 today... its not only body shape and size that has changed, its the actual dress size too.
i think too that the model world is a bit different in that a plus size model, even though they may be average sized, can only do so much. clothes that are made for model shows are made smaller so they look better... plus size models in magazines arent true plus size cause thats not what sells the clothes. beauty pageants on the other hand do deal with more than just how the person looks and from i can tell they are certainly more healthy and "meatier" than anyone i have seen on ANTM. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 1:48pm
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I would love to see 'beautiful' people without all these extras. What I didn't like about the contestants they had for the Miss Manawatu pageant is how old the girls were trying to look/be with all the make up and excess cleavage. Especially the Miss Teen contestants, why can't they be judged as the teenagers they are, not the grown up women they're pretending to be. That's what I don't like I guess is that its not a real representation of what women look like. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:00pm
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But these competitions aren't for the "average" woman. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:02pm
The weight loss industry is one of the biggest revenue generating industries in the world. You only have to look at this forum to see that there is a huge focus for women on losing weight. Would they all say that they want to lose weight because they want to look like Miss Universe? I think not! |
Posted By: IVFGirl1111
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:02pm
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For someone that has lost a lot of weight myself and used the excuse for YEARS that I cant be small because its in my genes not to be small - once I started training hard I realised that that was just an excuse for me and that anyone can get small and look great.
Now I just have to get back to that LOL. ------------- TTC 6 years IVF it is IVF/ICSI round one 10 eggs, 8 mature, 3 fertilised BFN IVF/ICSI #2 = 22 eggs! 20 mature, 15 fertilised, 1 fresh transfer and 2 frosties BFN 2 Frosties still in freezer thank god |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:02pm
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Bizzy- I think what C&J is asking is why *should* women feel they need all these extras to feel beautiful? I would like to know the same thing. It feels like Western society as a whole is turning into clones of each other ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:03pm
are you assuming that most women dont!? sure a number of women do look to the beauty industry for their standards but not all. such sweeping generalisations are a bit unfair to women on the whole i feel. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:05pm
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Do you not find that disturbing? ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:06pm
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OT *but*....Booboo- you look gorgeous exactly as you are hun! Much more of a hornbag than any of the Miss Universe contestants . You are a shining example of REAL beauty in action...inside and out. IMO. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:09pm
But the point I'm trying to make is that these women trying to lose weight must be doing it to feel healthier? Maybe someone who is currently trying to lose weight could help me out here but I assume they aren't doing it because they are striving to look like Miss Universe? ETA: Plus I can't believe women fall for the false claims of these weight loss companies and pour their money down the drain. I have always wanted to write a weight loss book, it would have one word on each page to pad it out.....EAT LESS AND EXERCISE!
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:15pm
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Probably poor choice of words, more along the lines of what Emmecat said is why 'should' women have to feel that way. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:17pm
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Women clearly do believe it how else would weight loss companies every survive let alone make record profits. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:19pm
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LR- absolutely agree, I would like to think that the majority of women who are trying to lose weight are not doing it because they want or expect to look like Miss Universe. HOWEVER what I guess concerns me about this whole topic is that A) I think beauty contests in general are not great as they do judge women by a standard set by what 'most' Western men find attractive (huge generalistaion I know), and don't take into account the whole package IYKWIM? B) that the weight thing is a different issue in some ways....I agree we are becomming an unhealthy and obese society and I think that's bad too. But it bothers me that some companies make millions out of getting us fat, and then more companies make millions more out of trying to make us thin. I bet any amount of money too that 'normal' healthy teens/women watch things like Miss Universe and on *some* level at least think 'why can't that be me?'! More sensitive souls doing this are the ones likely to take inappropriate steps to try adn emulate I suspect. I don't want that for my daughter. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:19pm
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Sorry I meant to say I can't believe HOW women fall for the false claims. I know they do, I just think they are stupid for doing so.
Some of those Dove chicks look a bit porky
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Posted By: IVFGirl1111
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:19pm
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LOL LR!
Well I wanted to lose weight because I felt terrible, was depressed, had NO self confidence at all, was angry and generally had no zest for life - but the funniest thing is that after I lost the weight I didnt realise that I didnt have any confidence and I didnt realise that by being overweight was affecting my moods - but it most definately was. When I was at my goal (now Im 5kgs over that) I felt fantastic, amazing and in control. I was still far from skinny but I felt great and that was what mattered at the end of the day. I would have been HUGE compared to the beauty pagent girls, but it wouldnt have worried me because I felt on top of the world. And Emmecat - thank you, you made me cry! In a good way of course, your too sweet! ------------- TTC 6 years IVF it is IVF/ICSI round one 10 eggs, 8 mature, 3 fertilised BFN IVF/ICSI #2 = 22 eggs! 20 mature, 15 fertilised, 1 fresh transfer and 2 frosties BFN 2 Frosties still in freezer thank god |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:23pm
and that to me is it in a nutshell! Women are womens worst enemies and they are the ones ultimately who make the beauty and weight loss industries so popular! ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:24pm
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Please don't judge me on my spelling lol ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: GuestGuest
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:25pm
THAT I agree with! |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:26pm
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Emmecats right though Booboo you are beautiful Slightly OT - but I always find the women used in mens magazines sexier than those in womens mags. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:30pm
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I'm curious do you think pregnant women are beautiful? ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 August 2010 at 2:30pm
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LR- you agreed with all my statement or just the last part? That must be a first for us lol ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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